After reading the brief autobiographical excerpt from John Fire Lame Deer, I want you to think about and answer ONE (you can address more, but don't feel obligated to do so) of the following questions:
1. JFLD states on p. 65 "You can almost say that a man with no vision can't be a real Indian." What do you think he means? Do you agree with him?
2. What do you think about JFLD's rejection of peyote? Why does he feel that he "shouldn't mix these two beliefs" (i.e. the sacred pipe and peyote)?
3. From pp. 67-69 JFLD goes on a bit of a rant about white (frog-skin) culture. Is this rant completely unfair, somewhat true, completely true? What is his general point about white American culture?
4. Did you learn anything new about the Sun Dance from JFLD's description?
5. What do you think of JFLD's statement on p. 74 when he writes, "Insight does not come cheaply, and we want no angel or saint to gain it for us and to give it to us secondhand..."?
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3) John Fire Lame Deer has made a very brave point about the white (frog-skin) culture. It was pretty unfair, but sadly, he is making a good and right argument about it. When he said that Americans are afraid of the world-afraid to live the fullest by respecting every thing and to be thinking simply- it may have been a wake-up call for the Americans that they could live more simpler. John Fire Lame Deer points out that the Native American culture live a life that they think is sacred. He believes that they appreciate more of life than those who just live life tasteless.
ReplyDeleteWhen John Fire Lame Deer talks about the sun dance, we find out that they don't do it just for sacrifice. I never would have guessed that it was also a time for socializing - seeing family members that married into different tribes (because of their no marriage to the same clan rule) and it's also a time for boys to "court" girls. With everyone excited and singing the brave-heart songs gives the sun dance a campfire-esque feel to it.
ReplyDelete2. I think John Fire Lame Deer makes a valid point about the peyote. Peyoters just eat peyote and try to have visions, while the people of the pipe use the pipe to connect with their ancestors and obtain substantial visions. The people of the pipe have continued to have the traditional view of the religion while the people of peyote only know of the peyote. John Lame Deer feels that both religions can not be mixed because the people of the pipe have continued to have the same beliefs as their ancestors and peyoters have a closed mind view of Indian religion. He believes that peyote is only for poor, depressed people.
ReplyDelete3.)
ReplyDeleteUnlike May, I think John Fire Lame Deer makes perfect sense. Considering what the white or "frog-skinned" people have done to the Plains Indians, Wounded Knee 1, killing off all the buffalo, Wounded Knee 2, I find it only natural that he despises everything about the white culture. Of course it is a biased, and unfair reaction because he isn't necessarily educated on the white culture and beliefs, his words are all the more justifiable knowing the hardships the Plains Indian's suffered at the hands of white men.
3. Throughout the reading, John Fire Lame Deer kept making references to a “you”. He said “you think this” and “you think that”, referring to ‘white people’. I believe this rant is completely unfair because as we have discussed before, you cannot understand a culture without being involved or at least making a point of understanding it. John Fire Lame Deer is making generalizations about the whole white race. I feel that Mary Crow Dog contained her thoughts of white people to at least those whom she had witnessed the cruelty of. John Fire Lame Deer is telling us that we are ‘culturally deprived’, that we don’t ‘see, feel, smell, or hear’ the world. We are obviously all not as physically connected to nature as Indians, but this does not mean that we can’t appreciate our surroundings, marvel at an animal in the wild, or get fresh air even when it is very hot or cold outside. What about the white vegetarians, naturalists, farmers? They all live to a certain degree connected to nature, so why does he have the right to clump them together with immoral men who kill coyotes to make a few cents? Our homes are not “prisons we have built for ourselves”, they’re places where we sleep, where we gather our thoughts, where we eat dinner with our family every night, and where we have our own little places in the world. Now this isn’t so different from an Indian home I might guess, but he has chosen to highlight the differences just because our walls might be made of plaster. Just because someone is an “upper-middle-class white kid living in a split-level suburban home with a color TV”, does not mean that that person is culturally deprived, it only means that that person is unlucky enough to occupy such a stereotypical role that exposes him to the jokes of Indian men who know nothing about him.
ReplyDeleteJohn Fire Lame Deer clearly does not understand the great diversity within the white race. Not all men are “time clock punchers” or “office workers”. And even if they were, they’re still hard and moral workers trying to make a living. Many white people do have color TV’s and many do work in an office for a living, but this does not make them “altered, declawed, and malformed”. It only makes them different. This sentence I found to be the most offensive in the entire rant. Who is to say which form is “mal” and which is “normal” and why must John Fire Lame Deer try to assign these judgments to anyone?
(continued from my last comment)
ReplyDeleteOf course many white people do not understand Indians either. We certainly can group them together with the stereotypes from cowboy and Indian movies; however we do not go on multiple page rants demeaning and pretending to understand their culture. This is the way we live and it hurts to have it criticized, I’m sure that these oppressed Indians of all people might be able to understand that.
ReplyDeleteTowards the end of the chapter, John Fire Lame Deer says “the difference between the white man and us is this”, this exemplifies his attitude throughout the excerpt and his rant against white people. He thinks that the different cultures can be compartmentalized and tied up with neat little bows with no overflow and no differing beliefs within the packages. He goes on to say that “we” are okay with someone suffering thousands of years ago for us, but not with them suffering for people close to them. Firstly, I know that many many of “us” must completely respect, even if not understand, what they do in the sun dance. Secondly, The Christian belief system is very different from his own. We believe that Jesus suffered for us, he believes that he must give of his own flesh for his God. This in no way means that we “lay the burden on our God” as he implies; it just means that we believe very different things and he shouldn’t look at us and say that we are not willing to suffer. We don’t refrain from purposely suffering because we’re not willing to suffer, we refrain from it because it is not a part of our belief system. It is not fair for John Fire Lame Deer to pass judgments about this.
(continued again)
ReplyDeleteIf John Fire Lame Deer is addressing a specific group of people in this rant, then that group does not include me or anyone I know; this only leads me to conclude that he is unaware of a great portion of the ‘white’ population. If he is talking to someone, it must be a person who never leaves his house because he doesn’t want to come in contact with dirt, or weather, or odors, or germs, someone who has no experiences but watches them on television, someone who kills animals but is not moral enough to even watch. I don’t know if all of these characteristics even apply to one person out there in the world; however none of them apply to enough white people that he might be allowed to judge our race by them.
His general point might be that white people do not live in harmony enough with nature. He makes this point but only through insulting and prejudging a whole race of people, whom he clearly knows very little about.
1. John Fire Lame Deer says, "You can almost say that a man with no vision can't be a real Indian" for one main reasons. Part of the religion for the Lakota and other Native American tribes, is the idea of going to a vision pit. After going to the sweat lodge, one must go for four days and four nights and stay away from the community by himself. John Fire Lame Deer says that he did this when he was sixteen years old to become a man. During this time, the people have visions which will tell them what they should do with the rest of their lives. People can go on a vision quest more than once, but almost all of them participate in one at some point. That is why John Fire Lame Deer says this quote - because all the men go through with this and to not have a vision means one did not do this ritual which in a sense is saying he is not a real Indian. I am neutral about this logic - I am not part of this culture or religion so I can not accurately judge these people. However, I understand where these words are coming from and it makes sense to me.
ReplyDelete2) I can understand why John Fire Lame Deer would reject the peyote. Visions are supposed to be sacred ways of communication between Wankan Tanka and Indians. These visions must be acquired through fasting and solitude, not through drugs. For Indians, visions are real, and John believes that the peyote just brings hallucinations that do not make much sense. In other words, it is better to sacrifice four days for a vision than to become intoxicated with a hallucinogen and receive an inadequate and non-sacred vision.
ReplyDelete4) When I read Mary Crow Dog's description of the Sun Dance, the highlight was still the skin piercing for me. I did not realize that there were more elements to the sacrifice of the sun dancers, such as staring into the excruciatingly bright sunlight, blowing a whistle until their throats are dry, and dancing around the tree until they almost collapse from exhaustion. It is more evident now how respected and honored the dancers are.
3. I think that what John Fire Lame Deer mentioned about the “frog – skins” is completely reasonable. Isabella B. brought up the point that he shouldn’t judge the whole race as a whole, but honestly, if I was in his position I would have thought the same thing about the frog skins. I don’t think we should think badly of John for resenting the American people because all the Americans have done is try to eliminate the Sioux. His people have suffered a lot because of the American race and therefore I think he is entitled to his opinion. I bet the Americans didn’t know so much about the Indian people but they judged them all as a whole; however, in this case they didn’t just go into rants about how much they disapproved of the Indians, they killed them.
ReplyDeleteAlso, in the part that criticized the way we live, I think he is just saying all these things because it is weird to him. We are very modern and it is very true that we are not as connected to nature as the Indians because now most of us are at home either on the computer or watching TV. I don’t think our way of living is bad, but I guess his good judgment is blurred by his hatred towards the people who have brought pain to the Indians.
4. I learned that again the number four comes up in Sun Dance. I find it really interesting how there are three sets of four days that correspond with Sun Dance. Another thing i learned about Sun Dance was that cottonwood was the sacred wood that was needed for the pole and that being selected to find the perfect cottonwood tree was a major honor. I also learned that there are three types of piercing that can be done. Also after reading Lame Deer's perspective on how each dancer must suffer for the dance. I also learn that Sun Dance is a very communitive ritual that brought friends and families together again. It also brought people together in relationships and courtships. In all, Sun Dance from Lame Deer's perspective was very interesting and informative.
ReplyDeleteInitially I was somewhat offended by this statement, because I felt it implied that Christians are lazy in their faith and aren’t truly devoted to God. I think that John Fire Lame Deer is not exercising the skills of tolerance, empathy, and keeping an open mind which are necessary when looking at other religions. However, after further reflection, I can see how an outsider like an Indian would think that Christians are lazy, and I myself can recognize that this is somewhat true. There is not the kind of devotion in most Christians today which still exists in the Indians – I don’t know any Christian who would be willing to undergo a Sundance. But this is because Christianity has continued to grow with the modern world and has lost some of the extreme intensity of the past, which Indian religions have managed to keep because they are still mostly separated from progress (positive and negative thing).
ReplyDeleteI think that John Fire Lame Deer’s remark about “secondhand insight” is what would be expected from an Indian – their religion is centered on the natural world: they want things clean cut, direct, pure. So for them, they cannot understand the value of something that is not in their way, just as I cannot really understand that of the Sundance. Though I do not appreciate his statement, from John Fire Lame Deer’s perspective it is fair and makes sense.
I was responding to number five by the way
ReplyDeleteA few thoughts and questions:
ReplyDeleteIn terms of the 7 dimensions, do you think that JFLD would praise a primary (mystical) or secondary (mediated) experience of the "Holy?"
Does it seem that JFLD has an issue with peyote because it makes having a vision too easy?
3) I feel that JFLD misinterprets "frog-skin" culture, but I understand how he believes what he does. From his point of view, the white people's culture may seem so abstract, and that we take the things that the earth provides, and take advantage of them, and use them for things that they may not have intended to be for... such as animals. JFLD seems to think that the white people make the earths provisions artificial. I think that he takes his argument a step to far, by making assumptions such as these. He is not at all open-minded to the white people's culture. This makes sense, however, because the white people have not treated indians with open-mindedness, but with disdain. The fact that white american culture is so much more advanced, seems to him, to be maybe a bit intimidating, and too powerful, and these concepts seem to be overwhelming... therefore, JFLD portrays his feelings putting a negative spin on his words, and his argument seems hostile towards the white american culture.
ReplyDelete4. I learned that they were jailed for 50 years because of it. Some men think of it as an initiation into manhood, but it is just prayer and a sacrifice. They could not eat or drink from morning to night as they were continuously dancing. Some people would faint or get sick from the lack. I still think the Sun Dance is a very interesting ritual and it takes a lot of strength and courage to take part in it.
ReplyDelete2. (In response to Mr. Cicalese's comment regarding question 2) From what I’ve perceived, JFLD is not saying that peyote makes having a vision too easy, but rather that it does not make it a genuine vision. Under the influence of the drug, anyone can have a dream -which does not make it a true test of one’s spirituality. Having a vision is an abstract and profound experience that should not be confused with being high off the peyote drug. There is quite a distinction between dreams under the influence of peyote and a sincere experiences of the “Holy”. JFLD has experienced such a vision and could never compromise for a “silly” peyote dream, and thus has given up peyote. I believe JFLD would prefer a mystical experience rather than a mediated experience. They are both valid experiences and one is not “better” or more sacred than the other. However, after reading JFLD’s autobiography, it is clear he would prefer mystical. Experiencing the “Holy” first-hand is very moving and intimate, and JFLD seems to appreciate and enjoy such experiences.
ReplyDelete1. When JFLD says,"You can almost say that a man with no vision can't be a real Indian," he means that i is not possible to fully understand Indian religion without experiencing it. This is because primal religions are so rooted in the experiential dimension of religion. Also, visions are the pinnacle of experiencing, and taping into the mythic past. But, I don't think I agree with him completely. I think one can be Indian if they wholly give themselves, and "sacrifice" their own body. I don't think that the vision is completely essential. Also, visions are one of the purest forms of mystical experience, and if everyone has them, in a way it devalues it. So, I don't think a vision is necessary, because it should come to one by chance, it cannot be "earned."
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed reading about John Fire Lame Deer, and his description of the Sun Dance was very descriptive and painted a clear picture in my mind. One of the things that I learned about that I didn't know before was that the Sun Dance gives everyone of different tribes a chance to interact with one another, like a large reunion where you get to reconnect with people that are distant or haven't seen in a while. Another point that was one of the most important aspects of the Sun Dance that really stood out to me was the offering of buffalo fat to the Buffalo Nation to prepare for good hunting, which led to the main pole of the Dance to be assembled at the center. What grabbed my attention was how the people were so anxious and so silent during it's raising, and as soon as the tree was upright a roar of excitement filled the area and everyone was so proud.
ReplyDelete3. I was slightly offended by the comments JFLD made about white (frog-skin) culture. I feel as though everyone can live their lives the way they want and people have the right, especially in America to believe in whatever they want. Whether that is living in tents or working in an office. I don't think it is right to criticize a culture of hard-working people. Although his accusations are offending, he has a point of forgetting what is important, and that is faith. I think JFLD is mistaking materials for interfering with faith, but I don't think that is the case for most especially if us white (frog-skin) people are thankful.
ReplyDelete4) From Mary Crow Dog's brief autobiographical excerpt, the main focus was on the skin piercing. After reading about the sun dance in the brief autobiographical excerpt from John Fire Lame Deer, I was able to acquire more information to strengthen my understanding of the ritual. I learned that the men and women that took part in the sun dance stared the blazing sun for numerous hours and danced for almost a day without food or drink. I also learned that the sun dance is a prayer and a sacrifice, not an initiation to manhood, or a way to prove one's courage.
ReplyDelete1) I feel that the Indians are very proud of having visions not only because one feels closer to the Gods after one but also because it takes a lot of sacrifice to have one. The only way is to fast and survive for 4 days in the woods, this takes time and strength. Visions are an important part of their culture. I half agree with John Fire Deer Lame. I feel that there are two levels on which one can be an Indian, one being by heritage the other spiritually. In order to be an Indian spiritually I do think one should be able to have visions. The sacrifice makes them closer to their religion and they have to be devoted to it in order to go through the sacrifice, making them a "real Indian."
ReplyDelete“You could almost say that a man with no vision can’t be a real Indian.” The point of this quote is to show the significance of a vision and how related it is to the Indians life. One must go through a great deal of hardship in order to receiver one, and then he/she can finally be accepted as a man/woman into the community. I can understand why he would say this, a vision is related to such a vast majority of things that make up an Indian’s life. In the ritualistic since, a person can only become a “true” man by receiving a vision.
ReplyDelete5. I think that JFLD'S statement about wanting to experience everything first hand and not through angels or saints makes sense, however it is hard for me to understand feeling comfortable with inflicting self pain even after JFLD'S in depth description of its significance. One thing that i think many people struggle with, myself included, in most modern religions is understanding sacrifice. For example, all christians believe that Christ sacrificed himself for us, but most people cannot truly understand that sacrifice because we have not experienced anything like that for ourselves. At the same time, part of the Christian religion is that Christ suffered for us so that we did not have to suffer and would be saved. Therefore, in order for us to gain insight we do not believe we have to suffer in a physical sense. Perhaps if we did believe in inflicting pain on ourselves we would have a much deeper understanding and appreciation. I think in the end it comes down to both religions not quite understanding each other. On both sides there are reasons for questioning because the rituals are so different. I think that both sides have their advantages and disadvantages and no matter what as long as you gain the insight that is all that counts.
ReplyDeleteJohn Fire Lame Deer refers to white people as 'frog-skins", which I believe is completely fair, however it should not pertain to only the white race, but to most modern citizens living in an urban setting. Most humans are spurred to better life by the fact that a better life is what money can buy. From the very beginning of a child's life their many parents try to set them up for success. Get them in to the best preschool, which will lead to a sought-after spot in a great private school, hopefully leading to a great college, and then a high paying job. So anyone can see how basically that whole chain leads to money and the attaining of a large sum of it.
ReplyDeleteI feel that John Fire Lame Deer’s statements against frog-skins, although harsh create an interesting perspective. JFLD says that white people are afraid of the world they created that they don’t take the time to see, feel, smell, or even hear it. I agree with JFLD, that a lot of time us, modern day Americans don’t take the time to stop and appreciate nature or admire our own surroundings. However, while I agree with that statement I feel that JFLD has only experienced one side of American culture. He talks about going to a house of an American Family and how the white constantly makes fussy comments about him, “watch the ashes,” “don’t smoke, you stain the curtains.” “Watch the goldfish bowl, don’t breathe on the parakeet.” I believe that because JFLD has only been exposed to one side of American culture that he has quickly written off all Americans as being culturally deprived.
ReplyDeleteJohn Fire Lame Deer's opinion on peyote doesn't stem only from the fact that peyote is an easier route to a vision, but that the vision itself obtained from peyote is insufficient and not sacred. He says that it is much better to go through days of suffering, hunger and thirst for a sacred vision then to simply pump your veins with hallucinogens to receive an inadequate vision. John Fire Lame Deer even goes far enough to say that people of the peyotee are depressed. What I thought he meant by that was that they don't have a strong enough connection to Wankan Tanka to sacrifice 4 days for a vision.
ReplyDelete1. When John Fire Lame Deer said this, I think the point he was trying to get across was that visions are such a common and central part of his faith, that it is something that everyone must do at some point in order to fully understand that faith. I find this similar, though not quite on the same scale, to the sacraments in Christianity. The sacraments are a rite of passage of sorts for Christians, and visions are too. In order to fully grasp the Lakota faith, JFLD makes it clear that having a vision, regardless of the means used to obtain it, is one of the most important things to do.
ReplyDeleteI think John Fire Lame Deer has a very valid point on peyote. I agree with him. Taking peyote is definitely a much easier way to get a vision, whereas in a vision quest you have to endure days of pain, hunger and suffering. It makes sense to me that a vision that you would have to work so hard for (as in a vision quest) would be much more sacred or special than a vision which you get after just eating something. Like John Fire Lame Deer said himself, " For us their is pain in joy and joy in pain". but I do understand why people would start to take peyote. When they are going through as rough times as were the Native Americans being able to get a vision so easily probably helped them manage and get through those tough times.
ReplyDelete1.
ReplyDeleteWhen JFLD says that, "You could almost say that a man with no vision can't be a real Indian." While having the vision, the Indians sacrifice so much to have this connection to God. They root themselves in the experiential idea of their religion. JFLD goes into great depth when explaining his first time on a vision quest. I felt as though he did a good job explaining how, after this vision quest, it was as though he entered the vision pit, a boy, and exited as a man. He also expressed the vision as an experience that all people, mostly men, and healers must have.
I also personally agree most with the way in which JFLD obtained his visions within those four days as apposed to using peyote. The vision pit, 4 days without food and water, and away from all society, give a sense of sacrifice to their religion, and fulfillment when they at last have this vision.
1). I think this quote refers to his and many other Indians' beliefs. The religion of many Indians includes the experience of having a vision;it is an essential part of their religion too, almost like a coming of age/maturity phase. I don't necessarily agree with what he says becuase I don't have to be confirmed to be considered a Catholic; I still am one. So not having a vision shouldn't determine whether or not you're an Indian. I think if you take the religion seriously and participate in rituals and traditions you can be an Indian.
ReplyDeleteQuestion 1:
ReplyDeleteWhen JFLD says that a man with no vision cannot be a real Indian, he is also touching upon the fact that he believes peyote is not for a real Sioux (66). A real Sioux has a vision after fasting and staying in the vision pit--not by eating an herb. I mentioned in class that I think the difference between the traditional Sioux vision quest and the peyote is that the original vision quests were more sacrificial. I agree with him in the sense that peyote is not as special or, rather, significant. JFLD says that neither a dream nor peyote result in real visions because anyone can have these visions without putting much effort into it--I believe that in order to really be in touch with this higher power, some sort of effort should be put into it. In class we also mentioned that these vision quests were a critical aspect of the religion, so how can you change something as vital as that in a new generation? Some traditions are allowed to change, but other traditions should hold true to the way they were all those years ago. Without them, you cannot call it the same religion--thus, you cannot be a real Indian.
To answer question one, I think that what JFLD means is that a vision is the keystone of beliefs in his culture. To not experience this, one can not fully experience what it means to be an Indian. He also says that visions brought on by drugs are not real visions, and only those acheived by giving personal sacrifice are visions that enable one to call himself an Indian.
ReplyDelete1. I think when John Fire says, "You could almost say that a man with no vision can't be a real Indian," he's proving how important visions are to the people. Earlier he says that if he hadn't had a a vision he would be a "heyoka, a contrarywise, an upside down man, a clown." I feel that their visions give them a sense of purpose and essentially make them a man in their culture; without a vision, you're missing an essential part to complete your maturity process. Also, I feel as if to them, lack of a vision makes a man effeminate, as if they are less of a man because they failed to have a vision.
ReplyDelete3. I feel that JFLD's rant was definitely unfair on many levels. He implies that because our lives are so disconnected from nature, they are not at all full lives. He says that we strip away the differences of nature in favor of sameness. On some levels, I do see his point. Americans do abuse resources and animals with little respect. However, I think he was unfair in saying that American lifestyle is a prison. I think a person's actions, not the culture he was born into, determines his worth. A person can still be a great person with respect for nature and still own a television.
ReplyDelete(1) My interpretation of what John Fire Lame Deer is saying is that a man without having a vision cannot be considered a real Indian. I also believe that having a vision can strengthen an Indian’s faith as well. Personally, I think going into a sweat lodge and fasting is extreme and also that it is not healthy. John Fire Lame Deer had his first vision in a four-day and four night time period. I disagree with a religion allowing one to hurt ones self in order to show dedication for their religion. I am a strong believer in supporting a person’s religious beliefs, but there’s a point where it might be too much for a person to handle.
ReplyDelete1. I think that what JFLD is trying to say when he says that a man without a vision is not a real man because visions were very sacred to the Indian people. It was their rite of passage into manhood. The Indian people lived for their visions. That is why they have their vision quests, and a boy doesn’t become a man until he spends those four days and nights out in the open until he finally has a vision, no matter how big or small it is. The men all feel like it is their duty to have a vision and those visions are sacred and help them to decide where they might end up in their lives.
ReplyDeleteThe Indian Sun Dance is also an important part of the Indian life, as JFLD tells us. The men who offer to dance are dancing for four days and nights and eventually have a vision as well as sacrificing to the gods and ancestors.
3) I think that John Fire Lame Deer's comment that "frog-skins" do not appreciate nature and are afraid of the world is unfair. While it may be true that certain Americans do not treat the earth with respect, it is not right to make generalizations about white culture. However I think it is understandable why John Fire Lame Deer has animosity about American. Throughout history, people have violated the Sioux by taken their land and belongings. I think that John Fire Lame Deer does not think that he should respect the those who have continually disrespected him and his people.
ReplyDeleteWhen John Fire Lame Deer says,"You can almost say that a man with no vision can't be a real Indian." I think he is referring to how central the idea of the vision is to the Indians. It is a main characteristic of their people, and so much apart of their lives, that not experiencing a vision quest would make you ignorant of to much of their culture to be accepted. For them the vision quest ties them together and identifies them as a people. To not experience it would mean to not be a man of the tribe. I also think it identifies a person's position in the tribe. For example JFLD knows he is to be a medicine man because of his vision. If one where to not seek a quest then he would not be identified and have no role in tribal life.
ReplyDeletePersonally I do agree with his statement where in I think that every child to be considered apart of this sect should at one time attempt a vision quest. Someone who does not attempt it, clearly is not involved enough to see its importance and is therefor not involved enough to be apart of the group.
4)
ReplyDeleteAlthough Mary Crow Dog does explain the significance of the Sun Dance very well, John Fire Lame Deer goes more in depth with it. I learned more about the purpose. During the Sun Dance, the people sacrifice themselves to their God because it is the only thing that is truly theirs and actually belongs to them. They give their flesh and blood in honor of their sacred Gods. That is a real sacrifice. Along with this idea, I also discovered that the Sun Dance is the oldest and most important ritual that has been passed down from generation to generation, so old that the people do not even know its origin. The Sun Dance, also known as Wi Wahuang Wacipi, is the greatest feast that brings the whole community, far and wide, together. It is a festival where the people are able to communicate with their strength and mystery powers. The Sun Dance is where all strength shatters and a vision comes to you; a vision that tells the people of their future.
2. I agree with JFLD's reason to quit peyote completely. He believed that anyone could achieve a dream with peyote, but it was merely a dream. To actually experience a spiritual vision, one had to feel it from within. The peyote was taking the meaning out of the traditional hanblechia. The people who continue to use peyote have already used it for so long and have confused themselves. They have confused themselves into believing that the peyote is their religion.
ReplyDelete4.The Sun Dance does sound pretty "superstitious" but we are all entitled to our beliefs and the Lakota people are free to do it if they feel the need to offer themselves to Wakan Tanka, It makes sense that they would rather go through pain and sacrifice themselves rather than sacrificing an animal. I now understand that they do it because they want to give something to their god, something personal that Wakan Tanka does not already own.
1. I think JFD is talking about how important the ritual of visions are to the Indian culture, and if you dont have them, then you arent involved in the most important part of the culture.If you dont complete a vision quest then you really cant know what it feels like to be a part of the whole religion. These visions were like their ways of showing how to be a man, and without them then they really couldnt be true Indians.
ReplyDeleteI think that in his rant about white Americans and their money-centered (frog-skin) culture John Fire Lame Deer says some things that are very true, some that may be true depending on how you look at them, and others that are blatantly unfair and not true. It is very true, for instance, about how we no longer pay attention to the source of our food, especially meat (except for vegetarians, which he may have been conveniently forgetting) and that there is something wrong about that. Mostly I think what he says falls into the second category—true depending on what perspective you look at it from. This includes his description of the government using the desert to test bombs. Yes, it is a shame that such a beautiful place was destroyed, but the government didn’t do it (at least not solely) out of an insensitivity to the beauty, but out of a desire to choose someplace where the least people would be affected. There is no place that exists where nobody and nothing would be affected, and the government felt that the bombs had to be tested somewhere, so perhaps it need not be taken in such a sort-of personal light as brutal insensitivity to nature. Finally, what struck me as going a bit too far—to the point of outright unfairness—was when he said “when you no longer experience anything for yourself.” Just because the life of an average “upper-middle-class white” American is convenient, comfortable, safe, and even sterile and devoid of nature (at least more so than the life of a Native American), does not mean it is without emotions, experiences, hardships, and even pain. It’s just that they aren’t as simple as being worried about finding food for the next day. And there are good experiences that every human shares, regardless of the culture, essential similarities that John Fire Lame Deer never mentions.
ReplyDeleteHis general point, though, is that white American culture has grown disconnected from nature, and from things as they were originally and as they are meant to be. This, I think, is largely true, though perhaps not in some individual cases—I’m sure there are people who are exceptions and live lives connected with nature. However, we as a culture have traded the natural for the comfortable or useful (the unnatural), the uncertain for the safe. Whether this is good or bad depends greatly on the individual case (for instance, medicine in the form of pills instead of herbs is unnatural but much more effective and even life-saving), but it is undeniably true.
(Sorry, I may have gotten a bit carried away--this is the beginnings of an essay...)
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ReplyDeleteI think this quote means that the revelation that comes to the Lakota Sioux people when they are performing any of the many rituals/ dances that are designed to induce such an 'insight' does not just arrive to every person without sacrifice. When he says, "insight does not come cheaply" he means that the 'insight' only comes to a person when he has performed the fasting or the sun dance and has gone through all the important motions of what it means to be a Lakota Sioux. He says that they do not want to be just magically granted the insight/ revelation (of the Great Spirit) without working for it. He means that it is important that they EARN the insight themselves, that it is not passed down or given out freely. It reminds me of the characteristics of God's grace (that we learned in 8th grade) and how God's grace, also, cannot be earned.
3. I think that John Fire Lame Deer is both fair and unfair in his perspective of white people. He says that white people treat Indians like animals; they don’t give a thought about them and only care about themselves. He says that white people take everything for granted and don’t appreciate real life (such as, the usefulness of an animal and the nature of human beings). These are unfair accusations because I feel Lame Deer doesn’t know enough about the culture of white people to have such a strong opinion of them. On the other hand, his accusations are fair because due to his experiences with the white race (like Wounded Knee and the killing of the buffalo), and since he has grown up in a society that has been against white people and hurt by them, it is only reasonable that he would dislike white men.
ReplyDelete1. "You can almost say that a man with no vision can't be a real Indian." I think that John Fire Lame Deer means that participating in a vision quest has been such an important tradition for so long that if one does not participate, it would be difficult to consider them fully Indian. Although I understand where he is coming from, as rituals are such a strong part of their religion, I do not agree with him. I think that the vision quests are extremely dangerous and if a person believes that he is strong enough to undergo such a difficult task, then he should definitely try. However, if a child does not think he is not strong enough, I don't think he should be forced to go anyway. Also, if a child fails or has no vision, I think that it would be unfair to not be considered a "real Indian."
ReplyDelete4) Although Mary Crow Dog writes a lot about the Sun Dance, I was much more interested by John Fire Lame Deer's explanation. MCD's explanation is a summary of her feelings during the Sun Dance. She expresses her desires to be a part of the "community like" feelings she witnesses her fellow tribe members experience. John Fire Lame Deer really goes into the "meat and potatoes". He explains the different ways to sacrifice and, in a way, to try and rationalize the Sun Dance, making it easier for outsiders such as ourselves to understand, at least as much as possible without truly believing in the religion ourselves. Also, I feel as though JFLD really made an effort to express the feeling that the Sun Dance is a true celebration, not just another seemingly bizarre Sioux ritual. He helps us understand the importance that the Sun Dance has in Lakota Sioux religion.
ReplyDelete2. I agree with John Fire Lame Deer's opinion on peyote. Peyote is a hallucinogen, it will allow anyone to have a vision. In this sense its not as special as the ritual hanblechia. In this ritual the native americans are forced into days of solitude until they have a vision. This way is so much more personal and really changes the person. The solitude and extremeness of the situation will allow the native american to feel closer to the wankan tanka. Peyote and hablechia cannot be mixed. A native american can't do both they must chose one. If you were to mix it would lessen the specialness of these rituals.
ReplyDelete3) I think John Fire Lame Deer makes some valid point in his rant. I don't think these generalizations only relate to white people, I think in general our whole society today, meaning all races, are somewhat caught up in a very materialistic and artifical lifestyle. Not many people, are 'in touch with nature' or appreciates it as JFLD says.
ReplyDelete1) When JFLD says, "You can almost say that a man with no vision can't be a real Indian," I think he means that because having a vision is a right of passage, to at least have it once, for and Indian boy. Without it you cant really become a Indian man. Every boy goes through this passage to be considered a man in indian culture, without it you are just aren't considered grown up. However, he uses "almost," I feel like that means a highly regarded man in Indian culture who has not had a vision, can still be considered a man.
ReplyDeleteJohn Fire Lame Deer states on p. 65 "You can almost say that a man with no vision can't be a real Indian." I think he says this for two reasons. The first for the obvious reason that many of my classmates have already stated, that having a vision after going to the sweat lodge and fasting for four days and four nights is a right of passage in a way. I think a deeper meaning is referring to the "real Indian" almost as if one is not a "real Indian" before this. I disagree with this. I believe that once you are born and surrounded u the Indian culture you become a part of it. I believe going out and having a vision is an important part of the culture, but I do not think its the central focus to all that they do.
ReplyDelete3) I think that although his tirade was harsh, he did raise some very good points. His opinions are completely the opposite from our society’s; we scorn people living tribal lives like the Native Americans, because we truly think our methods of “sanitized” living are the best. Lame Deer thinks that tribal living in the wilderness is the proper way to live, and he doesn’t view our idea of clean, easy living as a good thing. While he recognizes that we live very healthy and sterile lives, this means nothing to him because it prevents us from properly connecting with nature. We, on the other hand, register that being close to nature is a good thing (this is why we still go on hiking trips), but it means nothing to us unless we are healthy and safe. In this argument, no one can win, for each side sees the opponent’s point very clearly, yet they are each staunch in their opinion that their values are much more important, and in a sense, both sides are completely correct. I think that America has become much more tolerant of Native Americans in the past 30 to 40 years, yet this was written in 1972 when anti-Indian cruelty was still at large, so I do not think that Lame Deer was unnecessarily vicious.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the comments made about white culture were slightly offensive and stereotypical. However, I also believe he has a valid point, even if he doesn't express it in the most respectful way. What he is trying to say is that the white culture is not in touch with the nature that essentially created. He accuses "white people" of locking themselves in inside a little apartment and not experiencing the world around them. He is right in the sense that it is important to be in touch with nature and experience the world. However, the way he said this, especially his usage of the word "white culture" was very stereotypical. I think it is hard to pigeon-hole people into broad groups. On the contrary, it is also important to understand where Lame Deer is coming from. He and the Indians in general have experienced the worst of European-Americans and from his personal experiences he has formed, even if off the mark, understandable judgments.
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